hamilton clancy and his wife karen, came to court tuesday. >> those my birthday wish in its here in new york where here in new york, this is a once in a lifetime thing who wouldn't want to be here. it's democracy in action. >> those here say the weight goes quickly either with a good the book coffee, or friendly debate. >> it's a fake trial and i can't believe that they do this. they're doing this to him. it's fine to disagree that's how much war to the trial, like more testimony. michael cohen possibly trump himself. this line expected to only get longer and brand you know, i've seen you out there talking to people and you've had such amazing people. you've met are the leinz getting longer yeah, listen, this is a longest line that we have seen yet, people fully knowing that stormy daniels was going to be back on the stand today but with an arrow this is where they actually lined up, right? >> the public really forms this

line here and then over here is really for the press. and like i said, we >> might start seeing people within the next few hours because people are anticipating michael cohen to take the stand and i have to point out, we have actually met people from all across this bucks an hour for the line sitter. he's a busy man. >> all right. thank you so much i'm going to let your husband know your birthday present erik. thanks so much to all of you for being with us. we appreciate it. it's time for anderson good evening. >> welcome to our continuing special prompts on coverage of the trump at new york hush money trial. dave, 14. so i'm prosecutors focused or a current bookkeeper and a former white house staffer on how closely their boss watched every dollar, including far

smaller sums in his jackson michael cohen also de, two of cross-examine emanation for stormy daniels, perhaps at the defendant's behest, whether or not it helped his case. and after the jury left to defense motions, one, to modify the gag order that mr. trump is under to allow him to talk about stormy daniels the other asking for a mistrial for a second time this week, judge, juan for denying the gag order motion saying and i quote your clients track record speaks for itself. he also denied the mistrial motion, which the defense had based on what it claimed was prejudicial testimony by stormy daniels about sex with mr. trump. the judge said the defense brought it on themselves by denying a sexual encounter had taken place meaning he said that the jury needed to be able to determine whether to believe her or the defense. he also sculpted the defense for not objecting to items they were now citing as grounds for a mistrial prosecutors meantime, said they will not be calling the other woman who is alleging an affair with the former president, former playboy model karen mcdougal, who silence. he also

period prior to the 2016 election, afterwards, he had this to say i don't think we have to do any excellent explaining. i'm not allowed to anyway, because this judge is corrupt he's a corrupt judge. judge. what he did or what case ruling was as a disgrace everybody. so what happened today? >> he's a corrupt judge, it is totally conflicted as. for the woman he tried and failed to get his gag order lifted for stormy daniels. she tweeted this about an hour ago, quoting now, real men respond to testimony by being sworn in and taking the stand in court. >> oh, wait. never mind joining us now, new york defense attorney arthur aidala, who was in court today, also bestselling author and former federal prosecutor, jeffrey who've been seen in prime-time anchor is abby phillip and kaitlan collins, also someone who's known judge, merchan for more than 15 years, former new york judge jill of khan visor and cnn kara scannell has been covering this case from the beginning. want to talk to the two people who were in court,

karen, what did you what was it like at the end when the judge was going back and forth or trump's the attorneys over these motions. it got heated separate and apart from the testimony today, and that was in part because trump's team was arguing for a mistrial. the second time this week that they've done that and saying that this was unfair testimony was prejudicial. they're saying stormy daniels changed her story because some of her testimony intimated that there was a power dynamic at play and a height differential and she wasn't sure she could leave. but they said that that was unfair to the jury because at the time in 2016, she was saying that this was consensual and that is what trump was trying to stop if you believe the prosecution and not these additional details, but the judge said that this was of their own making it said the other day, he was surprised at trump's attorneys didn't object more than that, he sustained the first objection. he objected himself. but today he went even further and he said, why on his talking about trump's attorney, why on earth she wouldn't object to the mention of a condom. i don't understand. so he was saying

that they let far too much detail come in themselves before they objected and he was saying that, in fact, because they denied that this affair ever happen, that the jury was it was fair for the jury to hear the detail to draw their own conclusion about whether they believed her or not. >> okay. here's what i really want to know what we were outside the court reading your missives and others are reporters inside the court. it was very hard for us on the outside. we've talked about this on the heir to see to get a sense of how was the jury responding to this tends cross-examination of stormy daniels serwer, dad was at times seemed more relaxed perhaps than she had been in her actual testimony. the previous day, although it's hard to tell just from from text messages. but she seemed to be laughing more and i'm wondering want to get your taken also than arthur because you were also there. what was it like inside the courtroom well, how was the jury responded i mean, out of the gates, susan necheles, just with pounding her with questions and daniels was

responding so quickly that twice the judge had to both tell them stop. >> you're talking over each chapter the court reporter can take this down. so it was very combative, but daniels was holding our ground. she would she was making some jokes. she made a joke about being pressed on how she's profited from this. and she said, will not, unlike mr. trump over there, who's profited from his indictments this jury is very poker face. i have not seeing any reaction from them reacting to testimony. they've just taken it all straight. they take notes, a number of them flip through their notepad, but i have not seen any reaction. the only reaction i saw from a juror today was when a different witness had become emotional, they lifted up a box of tissues and hanako, the security officer who handed it to the witness, but otherwise, i've not seen any reaction. they just follow it like a tennis match. >> lawyer witness, lawyer witness, going back and forth, are there well, just picking up on the jury, being in the courtroom for the first time, i always one of the things i gauge of how serious a juror is

taking this probably most important thing they do civic duty was is how they dress. do they come in like slaad, like they don't care or they dressing like they're going somewhere that matters. i'm not saying you have dressing, you going to a wedding, but they they they looked like a professional jury and yes. what qarrah said, like, they're just susan stormy susan stormy, they would go back and forth let me just put my cards on the table. i went there for one reason today. i went there as a student susan necheles has a reputation in the legal community of being a spectacular lawyer. and i went there to learn from her and i did and what i learned was it just solidified when i knew there is no substitute for preparation. so all stormy's quick answers back, susan had a retort right back at you. oh, really? well, let's go let's talk about what you said to anderson cooper. oh, really, let's look, let's look what you wrote in your own book. so she had it off the top of her head and then she's able you

live much technology. then she's able to call up on the big screens exactly what she wanted to see the whole thing with the saints candle, the saint of indictments. she call a picture and she made it very clear that this was number one about money you wanted to make money. and i and she said, i didn't get paid for the anderson cooper interview. and then susan commonly says, but how much money did you make after the anderson cooper interview? you made $800,000 on a book advance. you may $200,000 on a television show. you got the hundred and $30,000 so you made millions? no, i didn't make millions. that's only 1 million a little bit more than 1 million. so i didn't make millions. so it was obvious the whole thing about money was off base. >> but overall, amazon, she held her own. >> i mean, pardon the pun, but she she weathered the storm susan necheles is broader storm and i even say like her body language like towards the end, she was kinda firm. i thought

qarrah jokes kind of felt flat. she tried to make like three or four jokes. no one really laughed. >> the biggest part that i was like are hot let's susan said susan necheles, the defense attorney said. >> so you've written the scripts for is it 150 pornography movies? >> and she gets all proud stormy saying, yes. and i think she said i directed in them and so, you know how to write imaginary sexual encounter there's don't you? and isn't that what happened here? no. this was real and if i was writing about it, i would have written a better story than this one. but it just goes to her credibility. but overall, like we've been saying, she's not a material witness, she's doesn't the end. susan says, do you know something like how he keeps his checks? it keeps us checkbooks. you know, how the books and records because i kept no, no, no, no, no. >> geoff it's why i just want to say because it's interesting that you say you're going to see susan. >> she has this reputation as this tough defense attorney. she certainly was tough in the

cross-examination of stormy daniels on tuesday. it's interesting how they ended today though, because the judge took a serious amount of time is qarrah was noting there when he was denying their motion for a mistrial to really focus on susan necheles, less particularly his her name multiple times and trump was kinda seated back in his chair like this with this kind of scowl on his face, listening to the judge really condemn trump's team for how they carry that out. susan nicholas was the first attorney me in that chair, stormy daniels, which was initially on the witness stand. and when they were getting into those graphic details, which the prosecutor has made clear today, they held back on a lot of what was in their initial interview with stormy daniels. that's why they embarked denied this motion for a mistrial to judge. but the judge's decision here was so thoughtful that he said yesterday, and there's no court. he went into his chambers and he reviewed the testimony from tuesday. he went over it and he looked at the past evidence of her interviews and what she had said previously said her accounts, not all that different. she didn't come in here and say

things that are all that different and he said what kara was noting, which is essentially that you guys made this a decision for the jury because you came out on your opening statement and questioned her credibility. so the prosecution had to restore very important point about about her consistency but limit let me just read what the judge said. he said about sermon down his version of events code. i disagree with your narrative that there's any new account here. i disagree that there's any change in story what's happened is people have gone into more detail than they originally really planned, right? >> and i felt the big difference between yesterday's best examination and today was that yesterday susan necheles has very much focused on stormy's hatred of trump and her financial motives. >> today, she went into a new area which was trying to prove that the description of the sexual encounter was different in that i think was a mistake. i think that's a waste of time. it allowed stormy to talk about it. again, i think the

judge is right. i don't think there were any major inconsistencies and that struck me as an example of one of client maintenance, that this was because trump wanted to dispute the weather, the sex took place even though in my opinion, maybe you disagree, maybe you all disagree. that's just not a worthwhile area that i think you made me write about client maintenance, but one of the things anderson that also stood out total silly answer from stormy. susan says, you testified here today that you guys never ate anything. you ordered dinner with they're never came up. that's true. well, let me read from i believe it was your book where you said we came up and we had dinner together. so in your own book, you're saying you had dinner and now you're saying you never eight stormy goes what we're i come from saying you had dinner with someone, doesn't have anything to do with food. it just means that the time of day you dinner time to actually had example of who

care i mean, what your defense attorney you got to hit every little. but there were a couple of exchanges like that that did come out of illicit. why are we even talking about this? i mean, i think generally when a lot of the make america horny tour right? >> i don't want to see if that everyone is talking about almost misses the point. because if there are discrepancies between what the witness said in the past off the stand, as opposed to what she said here, that is never ground as for a mistrial that is grounds for cross-examinatio n. that's the purpose of cross so it's a base an argument on a mistrial that somehow the story has changed to me, makes absolutely no sense at all. >> infinity, i don't think that was the argument. i think the argument was we should have a mistrial because it was two inflammatory to improper. >> i mean, it is i think they are good enough lawyers to know that cross-examination allegedly inconsistent stories isn't the quote from todd blanche, at least what i read was this is not the story she

told us and we were not prepared for that something along those lines, which sounded extremely as you said, something that a lot player would never, would never credit because that's the whole point of cross examination. keep bringing it back to this is a case about documents. why are we getting into such detail about sex? and the judge's saying because you open saying that that this never happened and that's why the prosecution that's extremely important because if the point is that never happened, then stormy daniels is a liar and have stormy daniels as a liar, the people then have a responsibility to pull out as much detail as possible. so this the jury can decide to credit. that's what the judge that's what the judge essentially said. >> i felt like these demeanor from tuesday to today about the usefulness of stormy's testimony and the detail really shifted. he seemed to really kind of settle into the idea that it was actually more necessary than not. i also don't think that any of the inconsistencies even speak to the most important part, which is if they want to claim the sex didn't happen, none of

those details, whether it's the dinner or anything else, really go to that. so i'm not sure that they really scored any points on that front except to seem like perhaps they were nitpicking on small things that really had nothing to do did it seem in the courtroom? >> i mean, just reading it from outside. it seemed like they were kind of shaming stormy daniels in some of the cross-examination for what she does for a living, did it did it feel like that in the courtroom? >> so it's funny is that i talked to her two colleagues who are in the courtroom with me, lauren devalue, and jeremy herb, and none of us took it as shaming, which is what some people i think on the outside took it as it seemed more that she was challenging her on. why would any of this be surprising to you? you're a professional and not that you to have been with so many different people. and stormy daniels reaction also did not seem defensive in that respect. she was correcting her on the difference in it, but not

seeming defensive about being asked that question was about the fainting. >> i mean, that's where susan i agree with you, but that's what susan when after a little bit shows she goes, how many movies have you been in? like 200 and you're absolutely naked, right? and you're having sex in front of all these people, right? but now you come out of a bathroom and there's a 60 year-old man and boxer shorts and a t-shirt. and for that reason, you almost fainted. and say, well, i didn't think it was just a little obvious. >> there's a difference between acting in a movie and something in your purse regular movie, jeff went up but don't get danya i don't know how a jury is going to react to that, but it doesn't seem to be implausible that she would have a different reaction, blacks out. well, she did she didn't fly. >> she said she almost black. >> i do think it was not a great look for susan to be schooled by stormy about what pornography actually is when stormy had to say it's real, it's not something that she makes up in a screenplay, by the way, is a film buff. >> i love a gang. good, didn't

reference the only one in this panel who really has seen that multiple times, judge, count adviser. thank you very much. appreciate it. up. next details from the full trial transcript, which just came out, cnn's john berman joins us for that and later which from biographer maggie haberman and york times reporter maggie haberman made of her day in court, or take on how the former president handled hearing more unflattering comments from stormy daniels and the fact they were listed by his defense team, and how a jury consultant thinks all of this land do maturers tonight a heart attack. >> do they have life insurance? >> no. >> but we have life insurance john, i'm trying to find something we can afford fortunately, it only a few minutes, select poke down john, a $500,000 policy for only $29 a month and his wife and a $500,000 policy for only $21 a month. >> go to select quote.com now and get the insurance your family needs at a price you can afford. select quote, we shop,

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mckend in washington and this is cnn stormy daniels, who was cross-examined today on her account of her sexual encounter within citizen trump, which he and his defense team deny before bringing and senior john berman with details from the trial transcript, jurors, what she's told me when i spoke with over cvs is 60 minutes i excused myself and i went to the restroom you know, i was in there for a little bit and came out and he was sitting on the edge of the bad when i walked out perched and when you saw that, what went through your mind i realize exactly what i'm trying to myself into i was like here we go.

>> and i just felt like maybe it was sort of i had it coming for making a bad decision for going to someone's room alone? i just heard the voice matter. well, you put yourself in a bad situation and bad things happen. so you deserve this and you had sex with him? >> yes you were 27? >> he was 60. were you physically attracted to him? no. >> not at all. no did you want to have sex with him? >> no. >> but i didn't i didn't say no. i'm not a victim. i'm not. >> it was entirely consensual. oh, yes. >> yes. >> joining us to cnn senior legal analyst, elie honig and john berman, jonny been looking at the transcripts a lot about the store sparring with stormy daniels. look in, arthur talked about this specific moment where susan less is going after stormy daniels for being involved in the porn industry. >> and she says, susan necheles, you have a lot of experience in making phony stories about sex appear to be real, right daniel says, wow,

i'm, there's laughter. she says, that's not how i would put it. the sex in the films. is very much real, just like what happened to me in the room than necklace says. all right. but you're making fictionalized stories about sex. you write those stories. daniel says, no, the sex is real. the character names might be different, but the sex is very real that a little bit later, necklace acid and you bragged about how good you are writing porn movies and writing really good stories and writing really good dialogue, right? daniel says, yes, necklace then says, and now you have a story you have been telling you having sex with president trump, right? >> then daniel you'll says, if that story was untrue, i would have written it to be a lot better and the transcript notes laughter in the room how do you think the defense did? i thought that piece of cross-examination backfired on the defense in a big way. i thought that was a mistake. i don't think it resonated with the jury. i think the cross-examination that donald trump trump's lawyers did the first de back on tuesday was extremely effective. they

undermined her and clear crisp ways today, i thought was meandering and i thought it was off the mark. there is a way that you can cross-examine stormy daniels very effectively in 45 seconds. >> what do you think the reason they didn't do that because this was a lot about what donald trump wanted to hear. >> that was a reporting yesterday and it seems to have played out that way in the court today. it's not optimal strategy. the points you hit are this, you hate donald trump, right? yes. >> you want him to go to prison yet, right? >> yes. you have posted twitter fantasies about how glorious it will be when he goes to prison, right? yes. you've made 1 million from selling your story to various outlets? yes, i had at you sign a written statement denying that you ever had sex with him in 2018? that's it. that's the that's the heart of the cross-examination. all this stuff trying to attack her for being a porn star to me is way off the mark and i think it undermine the effectiveness. room. >> yeah, that part that we just talked about. like i forget who was like the two or three people on my row i sometimes like fantastic because it was

meaning the questioning, not the answer's know the answer to like, look, you know, witnesses know how to get out of an answer, but it's like you've written these. i mean, how many witnesses get that you get to cross-examine, write fiction for olivia. oh, so you get to be like, this is what you do. you make stories all the time. you make money by making up stories. don't you? of course, she's going to give you a snot answer back. but it was that moment was like pretty cool. okay. i mean, i'm not sure whether whether they're reacting to the questions or the answers and it's all the questions matter, you know judge said at the end that that he made a strong point. >> he said everything that you're complaining about that you're saying should be a mistrial because is not relevant one, you didn't object to when she was asking me about whether or not he used a condom, but that part he said, i don't understand for the life of me why you went so long on that and cross-examination because you're just drilling it into the jury's ears. >> exactly. >> well, it's like you're just reminding them of every thing that you are upset that they hurdled too. >> sometimes the toothpaste

comes out of the two bright, you can't get it back in. so instead of it being that pure white, clean crest, you try to dirty it up a little like you don't know kaitlan, you don't like you. it's like a hot potato and you don't know how to handle it, but the judge, one thing that he said when he did go into his chambers yesterday reviewed the transcript. he looked at that part, in particular that they cited as a reason why there should be a miss and he said there was no objection here. you didn't really look that obviously that's a mistake. >> i was unpleasantly surprised at the lack of objections. i think at one point susan said she thought there was a misinterpretation of the judge's ruling and he she thought he allowed certain this things come in in a pretrial rule. >> let me read you what judge merchan said specifically about that. he said for some unexplained reason, which i still don't understand. there was no objection to certain testimony which was later used in the motion for a mistrial on tuesday and again, use today, for example, the mention of a condom. i agree that shouldn't have come out. i wish those questions hadn't been asked and i wish those answers hadn't

been given. but for the life of me, i don't know why ms necklace didn't object. she had just made about ten objections. most of which were sustained. why on earth was she object to the mention of a condom? i don't understand. let me defense there's a necklace here. i think that's actually unfair by the judge if the judge thought it was highly inappropriate, the judge can stop it. judges all the time. will stop a witness, even with no objection from either party, they'll say now, hold on. stop. objection. sustained. sometimes we'll do that on their own. number two tactically, as of defense lloyd, you do not want to be or prosecutor, you do not want to be popping up ten questions or 15 questions in a row? because it looks terrible in front of the jury. they think that you hate what's happening. you do have to keep something of a poker face. you have to play it cool. they did object several times as the judge notes right there, i don't think it's the job of either party to say every single question. objection. you're going to look obstructionist. it's going to look bad in front of dry. i don't think that's a fair take by the shooter i mean, i'm very curious to know what would be the mind of dong trump listening to the judge admonish this attorney who he himself

was sort not i mean, i don't know what touching to tell her to object more on tapping her a lot. i mean, i was watching him particularly as the judge was reading, was saying everything there and he was sitting back like this. i was making this motion with his hand, but he had this scowl on his face as he was listening like he knew the judge was not going to grant their motion for a mistrial, and he just thinks this, judge, even though from everything that i've witnessed and everyone who's been in the court, the judge has been quite fair. he's gone out of his way to not try to call trump out in front of the jury when they're and they're and but they just don't think he personally goes out and calls his judge corrupt ten times it goes into the judges like doing his best to try to be fair. >> by the way this incredible denunciation of the judge over and over again from someone who claimed hymns that his first amendment rights have been taken away, didn't sound like as first amendment rights had

been taken away to me. i mean, he is so free to talk about anything under the sun except the witnesses and the jury. >> that's really not much of a restriction and the idea that he's claiming this enormous victim hood while talking in the most scathing terms about this trial itself, is particularly our i mean, look what he's saying about the judge and your lawyer. it's i mean, it's embarrassing. i mean, i have no problem telling you if that was me. i would add a sidebar. i'd be like your honor, you know, i have nothing to do with what my client is saying out in the hallway and i don't feel that way. that's how i would handle myself. the other thing i found odd that must really do psychological damage to trump not all judges. amazon, when you, when they come into a courtroom, make you stand there are a lot of judges in the state court that just say remain seated remain seated because for whatever reason it's a preference, it's whatever you prefer. but judge

merchan has everyone rise. i don't know the last time donald trump had to rise when somebody else walked into the also called him, mr. trump, which is correct. i'd second reference to a president and you can hit his attorney and he's garlin, president trump, and everybody around him calls him president trump. and that's what you it's interesting by the way, the judge doesn't have to allow that. >> the judge can say no in this trial, you're going to refer to them as mr. trump. so he's allowing that so caitlin zero point about and being fair, he's allowing him to be called president trump, john berman, thanks very much coming up more on the mistrial motion that we've been talking about, the contentious moment between the judge and the defense over it and maggie haberman taken what she calls a test of wills. she was in court, joins us now i've got good news is a murder

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designer sales at up to 70% are shop guilt.com today we wanted to talk more about how the trial ended today, that combative moment between the judge and the defense over second attempt and mr. our next guess witnessed it all joining us, new york times senior political correspondent trump biographer maggie haberman, who has been inside the courtroom for the trial. so you wrote about that contentious hearing of the gag order and the miss trial. you said this is actually the kind of moment merchan has largely tried to avoid in this trial, it test a wills with the defense. he made it clear how angry he was with the arguments and that he thought trump's team was making them in bad faith. can you just from your perspective, walk us through how to unfold that? >> is sure. so a couple of things that obstruct me throughout this trial because i attended several days of the e. jean carroll trial and the situation there was very different between trump and the judge judge kaplan and that case. that was a real battle of wills in the engoron case, the new york civil fraud case it was something of a circus and that trial and trump and the judge were going back and forth to martian while the trump team really doesn't like him he has tried being really fair on a

bunch of points, including in a sidebar earlier this week saying to blanche when trump was cursing twice audibly, i'm not doing this out loud. i don't want to embarrass your client. you gotta get him under control. this was the moment i thought when we're sean had finally just had enough and was making very clear that he didn't think the arguments of land it was putting forward todd blanche, the main lawyer here. we're in good faith. he really lit into susan necheles, who had done the cross-examination of stormy daniels and said she had every opportunity to object to xyz and didn't they argued that there were reasons she didn't that there was a misunderstanding over the judge's instructions about what could be testified to, but he went on at length and he said something to the effect of no, i'm not going to adjust the gag because you can't tell me and good faith that your client is just going to answer rationally and not just attack these witnesses and it summed up the argument against a lot of what trump has been saying and what the defense has been doing. >> we're sean said your opener

was there was no sexual encounter that then opens the door for all the other questions and it's it's sort of hard to argue against that now, i assume they will use all of this if there's a conviction on appeal and they might have some success of the court of appeals, but that's a ways away. and i think that's just sets a tone for what we're going to see in jury instructions going forward do you have any sense of how trump now, who he is angry or add the judge or his own attorneys. >> i mean, listening to your attorneys being i think there's enough to go around. >> i don't i don't think he's i don't i don't think i think he's pretty equal opportunity on that. >> i mean, he's he has been he has been he was very happy with how susan necheles is denied on tuesday in the cross-examinatio n of stormy daniels because she was very aggressive. susan necheles very aggressive, although stormy daniels, while she did get tripped up on certain more minor details, she did also have a pretty defiant posture that was consistent in defense of herself. and they were very happy because stormy daniels had a bit of a rough outing with prosecutors earlier

that morning, but a lot of that went away today in terms of the job today that the events did i mean, how how did it play in the court in your perspective? >> it was it was rough. i mean, you know, there was these were pretty minor semantic details that susan necheles is was pushing stormy daniels on over. did you actually eat dinner or was it just dinner where food was not consumed and that point was made over and over and over again to essentially try to trip stormy daniels open, suggests her story had changed and that was something that merchan said after court. her story really hasn't changed. >> but jury sees this, it ends up risking looking like you're just badgering this woman who is not the defendant in this case susan necheles a very strong reputation as a trial defense lawyer. she has much more experienced than the men on that table. at that table, but i it's hard to separate when someone is working for donald trump. what's their

own? well, that's what they once, i'm wondering on the reporting because there were there a lot of talk today that this was performative perhaps for donald trump and his sense, or at least add the behest of dung. some of it's certainly felt like something he would like whether i mean, she is susan necheles is known as a very tough, aggressive lawyer courtroom, but but continuing to go at stormy daniels in this very contentious back-and-forth, felt in the courtroom like a losing prospect after the first several times, isn't it also possible that the miss trial motions themselves are about pleasing pleasing donald trump those lawyers they're smart enough to know, they're not going to win those miss trial motions. but they seem to be doing making these motions because they get to denounce the proceedings just like the way their client is doing in the press conference is afterwards and i don't i don't know what good that that does them, especially when the judge just slams the door at at the motion the way he did today. >> well, i would just go back

to make a point to that end. i mean, yes. yes. i think the ms charles were there mo and the previous trials, so i don't think this is some new thing that we're seeing, number one, but number two, the point more shawn made about how their opening argument are there. okay. made statement was not to say the false business records or not not real. it was to say sex never happened and that was their main focus. that's certainly pleasing the client. >> i mean, it just the whole stormy daniels thing. i mean, it may have been a little bit of a trap for the prosecution to spend as much time as they did with her on tuesday. but then the defense really fell into that trap wholeheartedly by arguing over that point like it is completely irrelevant whether the sex happened or not. the idea that they would spend all of this time on that today just i don't i don't understand. i don't understand it because it has taken us so far afield from what the jury is actually going to end up having to deliberate over as to whether or not donald trump was involved in falsifying those business records. it has sucked up so much oxygen this week in

the trial close to the whole picture in summation you can't believe this one or look it on the lives. this one told petersen told pecker, told best when told that once you've got a pile on, look, anderson or the flip side of that is for the prosecution this guy is lying about the sex. what he's lying about if he's going to lie to you about he's not testifying. they can't say that. they can't say that unless donald trump takes the stand, they can't say he's lying because he never took the stand so they could say they want you to believe this, but thank can't say he's lying to you about this. but just in terms of how it works with the client and the defense attorney if it's defense attorney is not getting scolded a little bit by the judge here in there. you're not pushing the envelope enough. you got to push until you get right there. you don't want to jump over the line to jump over the line. there for not going. >> they're getting scolded for not going we're going phi. >> they're fine. >> trial. the judge the judge off the one saying, you guys should have objected and you did not have right?

>> well, that's true. no, but i'm talking about the mistrial and this is no leg unique any lawyer here can tell you it's not a unique strategy to ask for a mistrial as much as you possibly can. you want to do every day? every single day, and that's what they're doing. >> the judge got annoyed, sorry, judge. i'm doing my thing. but go go and join a cup of coffee. we'll see you later. we'll be back tomorrow. there's not a big harmless often they're methods of client management for defense or is what i'm struck by is just how much of this trial is in the eye of the beholder. >> i mean, even here to smart people over in the courtroom, that's arthur said that the cross-examination today was searing and a huge win for trump's team. you seem to have seen it differently. magen, this is by the way why we all ought to wait. i mean, we don't never know what he's gonna do. >> no, i agree. i have my dad. it's such an interesting example either of you could have been on that jury and now i definitely could not have been i think trump would have that's probably right. >> but it's just so interesting to see the opposite may just having been in that courtroom

once last week, how different it is when you're actually there and when you're just reading the messages on the outside, like we're doing and we're doing the best we can bring viewers into that courtroom. >> but without cameras or without actually sitting there, it is. you just you don't know? yeah. >> you just such a human experience. it is human beings and sweat and just smells and the whole thing. >> and while he's also been i mean, trump it's not exactly known for not telegraphing his stress. and so we have been able to see that to the extent we can see his face, which depends on how close you are to the screen and whether you're allowed to use binoculars on a given day but there are days like this week when he has appeared visibly much more upset than at other times. and so you don't really see that and it's also just hard already understand if you don't sit through it. i mean, honestly, we don't sit through the whole trial. >> you don't really even have the same sense of it. i i've been talking to some colleagues who have been there episodically. and you just have a different sense of it. if you have not heard all of the testimony because it does all

go to one story. >> it seems to me even more than most trials. this one calls for humility on our part in terms of how the jury is reacting to things because jurs think about sex, what they think about marital infidelity, what they think about porn i mean, all of which i don't know what they think and what are they offended by? >> are they offended by the underlying conduct? are they offended by how the questioning is going. >> i don't know. and i think it's very important to say we don't know there's two layers on the jury, which is the other thing to remember, and we don't know which both, both sides, the prosecutors and the defense, both feel really good about for different reasons. and one one of them will be right and we don't know which one everyone thanks very much. everyone stay with as next more on the final day of testimony from stormy daniels, i'm gonna jury consultant makes the impact that's the trump hush money trial gavel to gavel coverage, the weight only cnn

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panel joining us now is jury consultant alan tuerkheimer. you know, it's actually because last time we talked, you said that jurors don't like anyone wasting their time, and i'm wondering if what you made the rabbit hole, the defense tried to take stormy daniels down today i can't pinpoint exactly when it happened, but i'm pretty confident that at some point stormy daniels fatigue sets in on the parties jury. she made her points. you talked about the encounter and then how team trump didn't want to getting out. so i don't think impressions changed that much today or how the jurors see her role in all of this now, with the subsequent witnesses it was very interesting because jurors were able to focus less on the seductive elements of the case and more on the important parts of the prosecution's case. they were able to see how unsigned checks went from new york to dc back to new york with trump's signature on them. it's very interesting, i think at this point even though they're going to pay attention to the evidence and listened to witnesses jurors, user on common sense and the recollections of the trump

presidency. and we saw some of that today when it was brought out that while trump's spent a lot of time tweeting, we know that from spend time golfing, it's not a shot at him. presidents like the golf he spent time calling, watching news, and calling into the shows i think the jurors are thinking, yeah, you know what, he probably knew what he was signing when he signed the checks. and what's interesting is also that jurors tend to hold people at the top accountable and the excuse well, i delegated while i didn't know about it, it seemed as a responsibility dodge by a lot of jurors. so i think at this point there are favoring the prosecution. they're doing well, there's a lot to be left, but most jurors are probably aligned with the project when you interview jurors in the days afterward. and you learn what registered with them. i mean, does it boil down to who they trust and who they don't like? oh, i i believe that in general, i believe this person i may not have liked them, but i believe them. i don't believe this person. is that how or is it i mean, there's two lawyers on this jury. i don't know if that would change that dynamic,

but i mean, is that sort of how decisions are made up? sometimes witness credibility is huge. and when i do talk to jurors, they usually reference one, maybe two witnesses, and then within those witnesses, who they say are quite credible believable, likable, bulk flow, focus on a portion of the testimony that really did it for them. sometimes it's known as a ha moment where they think, yeah, you know what i was listening to everything and then this witness said this and then i kind of thought, well, i know what's going on with the case. >> can i ask a question about the buck stops here? you said they don't like jurors don't like when a big shot tries to blame the lesser status people. >> but the issue in this case is did the corporate records that were signed that we're prepared by lower people in the pecking order did trump know about that what do you think a juror is going to adjourn? >> just think he was a billionaire. what did he know about how a bookkeeper prepared her records? >> and a good argument? it's

certainly the hope of the defense, but i just think it falls flat. and again, you just need one juror to think that what you were talking about. but most jurors especially with when they when they learned about how trump was so involved in the finances and interested in how things worked and he didn't just give up everything about his business when he came elected president. so i think it's a tough sell, but certainly if there's a juror two on there, maybe one of the lawyers on there that'll that'll help the things. >> that's come out in how the trump operation worked. how to do it that drop-down menu, where when they had when they had to do bookkeeping, there were only certain places that categories that you could check off and i got to tell you, i don't think the sitting president of the united states is really i understand. look, the people in my opinion, a proven beyond a reasonable doubt, he signed those checks and he knew what they were four, meaning they had to do with this stormy daniels non-disclosure agreement. i think that's that's done. that's not the crime the crime is the next piece of the puzzle. that's donald trump in

washington dc in the white house golfing do whenever he's doing, does he know what's going on at the trump corporation where in the log books are wearing that clicked down menu. it's being logged that's that hasn't been proven at all yet right. >> i think jurors make inferences to something like this, and i think they probably are. and some of them are thinking, yeah, he he knew about it and we haven't heard from the defense witnesses. there are gonna be open to hearing what the defense narrative is to counteract that, but i just think jurors would they bring with them their common sense and once they start to arrive at how they think the case should turn out, then they need something that's pretty stark to contradict that, to disabuse them but the difficulty is the person who trump would have had that conversation with was allen weisselberg. >> weisselberg is not talking right and that's a tremendous gift to the defense that he's he's off limits. but i guess i don't know which way common sense cuts in this. >> did donald trump know that

this whole thing was designed to hide the fact that this was a payoff or does donald trump just not know or care how docx how checks are characterized on some ancient piece of software. >> the other question is, why is keith schiller not a witness? keith schiller's name has been mentioned as much as anyone's. he was trump's longtime bodyguard. he was the one who is there present in 2006 when he was one who stormed hi, daniel says facilitated their dinner, but also madeleine westerhout, the white house aide who was basically trump's gatekeeper, the white house who testified late this afternoon, also said that this checks were sent to two people, jonny mcentee and keith schiller. they were the ones who sat right now outside the oval office with her and that he was basically the one who had helped make sure that checks got mailed back and were sent when she was the one in charge of where they're being sent. his name has not come up. he's not a witness in this case based on what we know so far, i wonder if my thing, but can i ask you a question about keith schiller? he was part of the trump administration, but

left early. he was not there to the end or was he know keith schiller was not there until the end? he left he was still getting paid by the trump organization when trump left, it wasn't clear what he was actually doing for them, but it was kind of it was a setup. it seemed that he could still be taken care of, still get paid, still have a job, but no one has heard from him since i feel like if there's any witness that's gonna be a hostile witness. for the prosecution that would be keith schiller. he would not take kindly to being asked to say negative things about his longtime boss, someone who basically trump made, i mean, 60ths trump took keith schiller from no nowhere and basically put them in the white house. so i think their relationship would be i don't know elie, if that would factor in for the prosecution by a witness like madeleine westerhout, who still likes trump, but it's not hostile, is the best you can get. you. she's not going to be hostile to you as the prosecutor, but she's not throwing her boss under the bus. keith schiller, i think would be a hostel. i'm sure that's exactly the you

cannot take a risk of putting someone on the stand who you think is a dyed in the wool loyalist of the defendant. and i don't think that'll illustrate how it was house was at that level. one other important point, kaitlan asieh, the jury is gonna be wondering, where's keith schiller? all of these questions, where's keith schiller? where's karen mcdougal? those are bad for the prosecution because the prosecution is the one that has the burden of proving there case beyond a reasonable doubt. very common defense tactic, stand up and closing ago, whereas keith schiller, folks don't you think he should or heard from him? they didn't call him. i'm not saying it's fatal here. i don't think there's anyone who so obviously missing. it's going to cost them the case. but all those missing witnesses are not great for prosecution. i'll enter number. thank you so much. it's great to have you get rest. are back with us in a moment as we dive into more for testimony from the trial today. plus what michael cohen is now saying that his expected testimony a heart attack do they have life insurance? >> no. >> but we have life insurance john, i'm trying to find something we can afford

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