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on this new hour of ayman, what in the world happened to reagan's republican party? our first guest wrote the book on how the alternative right took center stage. also, the clock is ticking for trump to pick a running mate. who he chooses could boil down to one thing, loyalty, and believing the big lie. and, the mindnumbing conversation between ann coulter and vivek ramaswamy that earned them the title of worst of the week. i am ayman mohyeldin.

let's do it. i start this hour by taking you back to the quaint time that was 2015, back when we were still figuring out what the dating term, ghosting, actually, meant, and what a lot of us did not know about that fringe movement that was the alternative right. that all changed with donald trump's golden escalator ride at trump tower, when he announced his longshot presidential campaign. trump, of course, started by courting the fringe alt rights movement, enlisting the help of steve bannon, and then executive chairman of breitbart. this early flirtation was concerning for conservative commentator, david french.

he wrote an op-ed in 2015 calling out the movement, saying many of them are unapologetically white nationalists, hate interracial adoption, and other race mixing practices, and think about the issue of immigration, primarily, if not exclusively, in racial terms. french and his wife were quickly bombarded with threats from the alt-right trolls. as nancy french writes, the most disturbing attack targeted their ethiopian daughter, naomi. they were sent images of the seven-year-old in a gas chamber with donald trump, wearing a nazi uniform and pulling a gas lever. it only got worse when david french briefly considered running as a third-party candidate in 2016. here he is on msnbc, after he nixed the idea, talking about the emotional toll these attacks had on his family. >> i have been up against trump for some time, and the assault on my family have been overwhelming, just as a writer.

that online racist mob is very fond of pointing out that i have a multiracial family, so they have gone after my daughter in the worst way imaginable. >> just a few months later, unlikely candidate donald trump was elected president of the united states, and french's nightmare was far from over. in 2018, nancy french received a call from the fbi informing her that their address had been found on the computer of a trump supporter, who infamously mailed pipe bombs to prominent democrats. in just a few short years, the alt-right movement graduated from a fringe group, to being flat formed and fully embraced by trump and his allies. the republican party had countless opportunities to prevent this normalization from happening, but they did not. they consistently failed to do anything. not after charlottesville, not after the rise of the proud boys, not even after january 6th. what about the republicans that dared to stand up to donald trump? mitt romney, liz cheney, adam

kinzinger? they have become pariahs with no future in the modern republican party, the same with david and nancy french, by objecting to trump, and the rise of the alt-right, they have been ghosted by conservative friends and the community. they have become a political island, because in 2024, it's not be alt-right anymore. it's just the right. nancy french joins me now. she is the author of the new memoir, ghosted, and american story. it's great to have you on the show. thank you so much for making time for us. talk to us a little bit about your experience been ghosted from the gop. you write in the book about how you and your husband once attended the 2012 cpac convention where you were considered the prom king and queen there. how did you go from that to being outliers? >> right, watching you talk about all of the things that our family has gone through made me choke up, because it's very emotional to see it all

just unfurled before your eyes. you take hits, hits, hits, but seeing you put it together, it choked me up a bit, so my apologies on that. you were talking about ronald reagan. david won the ronald reagan award in 2012, and everyone stood on their feet and said, we are the type of family that epitomizes conservatism, and we have never been welcomed there again. it has been harrowing. it has been disturbing, and one of the things that is alarming, of course, are the people who were trolling us online, on twitter, with the fake memes, and the auschwitz memes that they photoshopped are family members into. all of that is sad. the thing that is more disconcerting to me is the actual party, which he pointed out that the actual leadership. it's not the trolls that are the problem. it's the fact we have acquiesced to them and we are indistinguishable, the gop leadership and the trolls are indistinguishable. you can't tell the difference.

everyone is gas lighting us. >> you make an important part that's my point about the political party, and i wonder where you see yourself fitting politically now? where are you able to find community in politics these days? ultimately, for the sake of our democracy, we need vibrant political parties, we can't have just one political party that runs the shade of conservativism all the way to progressive left. >> right, and i don't really have any good answers for this, to be completely honest. i have been so demoralized and sad over what is happened to the party of reagan. i grew up with ronald reagan pictures on my wall. but, i also cannot become a democrat, because i have beliefs and i hold my political values -- they don't align exactly with the democratic party either, but i like to sort of think about myself being allied with the descent, a coalition of decent people. people who are defiantly not taking what these parties are handing down to us as the two

options. it might sound naove or pie-in- the-sky, but i'm just not going to acquiesce to -- when the gop tells me this is my option, i will not acquiesce, and i think that's one of the most american things i have ever done in my life. >> i think it's a beautiful thing, and certainly, something the country needs right now. i wanted to ask you about one of your trump supporting clients in your career as a ghostwriter, who downplayed the rise of the alt-right, even as you were being attacked. we always thought in our country, that the alt-right or far right were on the fringes, they would never become mainstream. at this point, though, you really can't deny the alt-right and the white nationalists and supremacist have become mainstream, certainly, within the republican party. >> yes, that's exactly right. all of my clients. i had wonderful clients. i have been a ghostwriter for many years. i have written for gop celebrities, pundits, as well as reality tv stars.

i might be one of the only people to have been to a bachelor wedding, so i've had a lot of fun with my ghost writing career. but, i loved all of my conservative clients, that we started to disagree ideologically. i did not want to annoy them to death, which i know i was doing. i would say, you need to write this about trump, and i would push back. really? do we want to mock john mccain, his heroic war record? is that what we want to do? it wasn't their fault, but we started believing different things, which is really awkward, as if you are ghostwriter, you have to be able to intuit what your clients want and what they need to say. and, the best way to say it, so eventually, either i was fired where i quit from all of my clients. sometimes it was hard to tell the difference because there were so many emotions involved, because i loved all of my clients. >> how do you explain how they fell under that spell? there is probably a big chunk of the population in society that thinks, people are making a deal with the devil. they are bargaining, certainly,

the 1% thinks that trump is good for the republican party or for my tax racket, if you will. but how do you explain the clients you had falling under the spell of the modern-day republican party? are they doing it for their own self interests, or were they true believers? >> i think if you put them under a litmus, or lie detector test, they would, literally, pass it, at every stage. in 2012, when we were having conversations, and in 2014, 2016, i think they would pass it on each level, because there is such a haida level of self- delusion here. i think that they just gradually changed, the proverbial frog in a pot, or whatever. boiling water. i think they gradually changed and didn't realize it because there were so few people, who were calling them out. you put the people up on the screen, who are now as popular as head lice in the republican party. no one listens to us. no one listens to his people.

since the momentum, it's like every sunday school lesson you have had in church, when the momentum starts going, and they pass you the red solo cup, are you going to take the swing? the republican party was like yes, party! let's chug this. a few of us were like, this sort of feels like poison. this doesn't feel like what we signed up for. i'm not sure what the answer to that is, but i could not keep -- i didn't feel like god had given me my writing talents to mischaracterize people or push this agenda, so it left me occupationally homeless. >> let me ask you about the future where you think the republican party goes after trump. he is not going to be around forever. can they rebuild the party in a post trump era, or is the damage too severely done that you will get a trump 2.0, whether it is marjorie taylor greene or ron desantis, or vivek ramaswamy, are there enough people remaining in the party to steer it away from trumpism, or has it infected

the party so much that it's a lost cause? >> i feel like i can't imagine that it's not a lost cause, as all of the values that we held dear, if you just wrote them down, the gop platform that i grew up knowing about, we violated all of that. what is left? is it the red hat? is it a stylish thing? the fact that we have the same caps? no. we have nothing left. it's all vacuous. i don't know. i don't have any solutions for that, i just know that i'm not going to be part of it. >> it's nothing short of a cult, if you look at it on the superficial aspects, and what it has become. nancy french, thank you for your time. i greatly appreciate it, and i am wishing you well. >> thank you so much for having me. so next up, the competition that forces republicans to leave their values at the door. >> i think trump is going to play this like apprentice. he's going to play it out. he's going to make you join, he's going to make you follow

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senator, will you commit to accepting the election results of 2024, bottom line? >> at the end of the day, the 47th president of the united states will be present donald trump, and i'm excited to get back to low inflation, low unemployment passed >> senator, yes or no, will you accept the election results of 2024, no matter who wins? >> that is my statement. >> that is my statement. that was republican senator, tim scott's concerning performance in what many viewed as his audition tape to be donald trump's vice president. as a bulwark puts it, he is one of many in the race to self abase. there is also kristi noem, who faced swift backlash for confessing, unprompted, to shooting and killing her dog, a puppy, to be more precise.

she spent last weekend at mar-a- lago, but the negative attention may be too much for donald trump, who said she, "had a rough couple of days." another pit -- pick, j.d. vance, recently downplaying january 6th, and the ex- president's role in the insurrection. joining us now, molly jong fast, special correspondent for vanity fair, and msnbc political analyst. also with us, dean obeidallah, host of the dean obeidallah show. it's good to have you with us. the theory is, to be a potential vice presidential nominee for donald trump, you have to be good on television. you have to be able to raise a lot of money. you probably have to have the willingness to deny the election. how do you think tim scott is faring right now? >> i mean, it's a race to the bottom here. it's who can debase themselves the most. what is bad is that they go on television and do things like they say, they won't accept the

results of the election, which is bad for democracy and undermined -- undermines the rule of law. we saw rick scott outside the courthouse saying, this is a democrat judge. these are all the things that are actually degrading the guardrails and the norms of a democratic society, so it's quite bad, but it's also fun to watch them destroy themselves. >> fun to watch them destroy themselves, and also, probably willing to put their lives on the line, given what happened to mike pence. they were, literally, chanting, hang mike pence. i don't know if i want a job where i know that the eventuality is, i could be hung. >> it's remarkable. the senator from florida flies to new york to be donald trump's service animal, essentially, his emotional support animal. a senator sitting in the courtroom. meanwhile, tim scott, j.d. vance, the puppy killer. i think there should be a physical competition. i think this should be a steel

cage match, three go in, one comes out. that's the one who is going to win. they can all say the right thing. i want to see who is really going to fight for trump, physically fight for trump. >> they are doing real damage. >> they are really damaging the institutions. >> when rick scott was up there he was saying, this is a democrat judge with a democrat wife, and it was like, none of that is how this happened. there was a grand jury. there is a jury trial. and these people, who are the base, are believing this. this is their news source. >> i was going to ask you about another one, the daily beast is reporting that marco rubio wants to go from little marco to potential trump vice president. of course, marco trump, humiliated, defeated, insulted by trump throughout the 2016 campaign, but in order to do that, he would need to vacate his senate seat. for me, i'm thinking again,

this guy is willing to self sabotage his political career, everything he fought for, just to potentially please donald trump. >> look, it's like the apprentice, and the apprentice got canceled in 2015 for lack of viewers, so i'm really hoping that's going to happen. truly, and i'm not being morbid, i don't know if donald trump survives four years as president. he can't stay awake in his trial, and they're talking about him. his skin looks like he's molting, and i'm not sure what, physically, there is a cognitive decline going on. whoever he picks needs to be vetted. even if you don't like anybody in the corporate media, they need to really but that person, because that person billy could be president, and i'm not wishing donald trump ill. he will be 78 in a few weeks. he doesn't look well. he doesn't have the energy. we know that something is going on with him, cognitively. >> i would say, your point is a really good point, though, that what happened to mike pence --

mike pence refused to endorse trump. they built a gallows. it was not an operational gallows, but they were chanting hang mike pence. this is, obviously, not a good job. >> the fact that the secret service took him out of their was enough of a threat. it tells you how worried security was about mike pence's safety. this was serious. >> but, the desperation to still get that job is shocking. >> j.d. vance was on tv saying, i didn't think that mike pence is life was at risk. he said that a week ago. these people beat police officers to within an inch of their life. some took their lives days later, because of the trauma and what they went through. they would've killed mike pence for donald trump. they committed seditious conspiracy. they were convicted of that, for donald trump. he has his own militia. there is a military wing of maga that is there. whoever is the vp has to know, anytime, if you break the loyalty oath to donald trump,

like in the mafia, they are going to come for you. >> the politically savvy people, if there are any in his camp, would say, go with somebody like nikki haley. she is still getting a little bit of support within the republican party. she can fund raise, and it would, perhaps, give a little bit of assurance to those republicans, that are not 100% maga. do you see that happening? there was reporting that she was being considered. donald trump fired out a tweet saying, that ain't happening. >> donald trump jr. said, i would do anything to prevent that. nikki haley is still getting 20%, 30% of the vote, in states where she has not been on the ballot in months and months, which i think is also an important data point. there are never trump people who are going out and voting for someone, who is not even in the race, and i don't know that those people come home to

trump. i'm not convinced. so, i would say, i think it's very unlikely -- she has not endorsed him, and my take is, everyone kept saying, she's going to endorse. she hasn't endorse, and i think she, like liz cheney, are trying to keep their powder dry for what happens if he loses. >> what is the play here for, not just nikki haley, but for donald trump to go in as a vice presidential pick? >> he will pick a white man, okay, america? that's what he's about. this is the man who brad, first of all, just recently, that white people are being discriminated against in america. this is amanda believes he is the center of whiteness. maga at the core is a white nationalist movement. he is bragging that he terminated roe v. wade. he said, i was honored to terminate roe v. wade. he is happy that he took a fundamental right away from women. he does not view people of color or women as equals. he views them as inferior.

he will pick a white man, because that's what his base wants, that's what he wants, more portly. you can play this tape back what he makes his choice. it's going to be a white guy. >> i think it could still be sarah sanders. >> interesting. i think it's likely to be a white guy, but i think sarah sanders is still in it. >> we will hold those thoughts. we have a lot more to discuss. while it may hurt campus groups to exclude the right --

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but, amid mounting backlash, more than 1000 jewish professors signed onto a letter this week calling on lawmakers not to support the legislation, and reject any effort to codify into federal law the definition of anti-semitism that conflates anti-semitism with criticism of the state of israel. some are concerned that under the law, schools could be accused of discrimination and risk losing federal funding for merely offering courses that are critical of zionism, or allowing protests against israeli government policies. one of those critics is the lead drafter of the text that became the definition. kenneth stern, who has argued that it was never meant to chill free speech on campuses, he writes in the boston globe, when we use the term anti- semitism so expansively, it is emptied of its meaning. harming our ability to confront it. with me now to discuss this is

kenneth stern, director of the bart center for the study of hate, and author of the conflict over the conflict. kenneth, it's great to have you on the show. thank you so much for making time for us. for years, you have raised concerns about enshrining the definition of anti-semitism into law. elaborate for us and our viewers on your concerns about a more expansive definition of anti-semitism and why you are concerned about how it could target free speech on college campuses. >> well, thank you for having me, and it has been used to target free speech on college campuses. it was developed in 2004, 2005. the text of it. mostly, to help european data collectors take the temperature of anti-semitism across borders and time, but it was never intended as a hate speech code, and what we started seeing in 2010, when the department of education made clear that

jewish people and muslims as ethnicities were protected under title vi from a pervasively hostile campus environment. we started seeing lawsuits to say that certain things that people believed violated the definition. examples about israel, things related to courses being taught, speakers coming to campus and so forth. that should be the basis of a title vi case, so it was used as a hate speech code, and one of the things that really troubled me when i started working with the jewish committee on these issues, one of the things we discussed talking to college deans and faculty was a lesson about bigotry on campus. have a simple rule that says what speech is okay, and what isn't. you want to make clear that students should not be harassed, they should not be intimidated, bullied, but they should expect to hear things that they don't like, and that should be responded to with teaching and other speech.

>> how do you personally feel about how the definition is being used beyond its original intent, and more broadly speaking, the way that anti- semitism is been conflated with anti-zionism? do you think that is a major cause of concern to stifle debate around israel? >> my major concern is that we are at a point where we try to get simple solutions for complicated issues. we see it on this issue. we see it on issues around the 2024 election, immigration, abortion. i run a hate study center, and people who hate want to see simple things. they want to have clarity. they want to believe that justice is on their side, and injustices on the other side, and there is brain science and social psychology that helps support this conclusion, but people that are fighting hate and anti-semitism are human beings too, and we tend to want to have simple solutions, and that is what worries me most.

it blinds us to the things we could be doing about anti- semitism on and off the campus, when we think there is a handy cheat sheet that says, this is okay to say, this is not okay. when you look at how anti- semitism actually works, think of the tree of life shooting in pittsburgh. it was motivated with a background of people talking about invaders coming over the southern border, and because the jewish community had hosted a pro-immigration group, that was a target. nobody would say that the shooting at the el paso walmart a few months later by somebody with the same ideology was an active anti-semitism. we limit how we think about how anti-semitism actually works in the real world when we say, is it on that side of the line or the side of the line? we don't want to use it as a matter of law to stifle speech. that ends debate and stops us from doing the things we should be doing on the campus.

>> i had not thought about the tree of life or walmart shooting about anti-semitism and the way you just outlined, and it's true when you think about what the shooter's motivations were because of the anti-immigration policies, that it does connect to anti- semitism. i'm really glad you used that as an example. let me ask you about another angle to this, if you will. slate writes that groups like the antidefamation league have abandoned some of the people it exists to protect by reportedly mapping cease-fire protests as anti-semitic incidents and updating its methodology to include certain anti-israel incident in its calculation of how much anti-semitism has actually risen, based on speech, as you mentioned. what is your response to these kinds of designations by prominent groups like the adl, who want to use this very expensive terminology of anti- semitism to include the specific phrases, things like, from the river to the sea, or calling for uprisings?

>> there is a debate inside the jewish community, and the debate is whether a certain view towards israel is required to be inside the tent, and i get it. others believe that anti-zionism is anti-semitism all the time, but the problem is, it isn't. if you are palestinian, or a supporter of palestinian rights, and you see zionism is affecting your ability to control your life, that is not because it's about jewish people. inside the jewish community, you have a generation of younger people, and their judaism leads them to an anti- zionist position. they can't square, they can't square the idea of a jewish state with the idea of, how do you treat the stranger, and how you treat the world? i will disagree on the merits of that, but i will not label their views as anti-semitic. i will just say i disagree with them.

>> kenneth stern, thank you for your time. i greatly appreciate you sharing your expertise with us. >> thank you so much for having me. ann coulter and vivek ramaswamy face off in the worst of the week. you do not want to miss this one. for moderate to severe crohn's disease skyrizi is the first il-23 inhibitor that can deliver remission and visibly improve damage of the intestinal lining.

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you are so bright and articulate, and i guess i can call you articulate, since you are not an american black. i can't say that about them. that is derogatory. i agree with many, many things you said, in fact, maybe more than most other candidates when you are running for president, but i still would not have voted for you, because you are an indian. >> that was ann coulter's way of saying, hello to one-time republican presidential candidate and self-proclaimed nonwhite nationalists, vivek ramaswamy, on his own podcasts. her offensive and racist and un- american comments and ramaswamy's placating were enough to lend both of them in

our worst of the week. he never corrected coulter, as she continuously referred to him as an immigrant. he is actually the son of two indian immigrants, and he himself was born and raised in ohio, and that's why he was able to run for president, if she was present -- paying attention to her campaign. he said, i disagree with her, but respect that she had the guts to speak her mind. something the two of them could agree on -- >> there are arab street signs. when you taken that many immigrants from one area of the world at once, and we are taking them in from all kinds of different areas, they create their own little mexico, their own little whatever. >> enclaves, absolutely. it's disgusting, actually. >> you know, what that looks and smells like, mr. ramaswamy, desperation. molly and dean are back with me. dean, i will start with you.

there are so many layers to unpack in this exchange, but what do you make? >> it's like, is a giant fan watching the cowboys play the patriots, i root for injuries. these two, look, i don't think -- i think he is worse because he thinks he is white, and coulter told him why he only got 3% of the vote, and tim scott not less, as they are not white. and, they are sellouts. these are rafe -- race grifters. vivek is worse. he said, i respect you for speaking your mind. >> then, he agrees with her by saying it's disgusting that there are communities that have signage on their streets. >> i bet he has no problem with little italy, right? my grandparents came here, they were not treated nicely when they came here in the 1800s. flashforward, my palestinian muslim dad, the same thing happens in the 1950s in america. america evolves.

>> molly, what do you think? >> they are both appalling human beings. the scary thing about vivek is that he is involved in white nationalism, this very antidemocratic, really scary kind of -- that are racist roots to its, it's also just very dark. and then, the scary thing about ann coulter is that she hates immigrants and always has and always will because she is a racist. but, the thing about this conversation, when you watch it, there has been so much anti- immigrant rhetoric, the reality is, the reason our economy is as good as it is is because we have immigrants. >> these people don't care about that. >> they are not having a debate about the merits of the american economy. >> right, but we have to remember that immigration is really good and it's really good for the economy, and it's really good. we were talking during the break. it is how all of our families got here, and it's how ann

coulter's family got here, and how vivek's family got here. >> i saw stephen miller, donald trump's gargoyle. i'm not even kidding. about a year and half ago, with young republicans bragging that in the trump administration, we let in the least refugees in the modern era, and he says, you can apply for that. they want to brainwash young republicans to be anti- immigrant. legal immigration. nothing. close the doors. let's keep this country the demographic it is, and maybe white people can keep control. that is their view. we are dealing with the white nationalist movement, and it's more important to call it out. >> for me, it's not just tokenism. i'm trying to understand vivek ramaswamy here, and why he is trying to do this. does he see for himself a future in the party, when he takes this position of being a nonwhite nationalist, as he calls himself? then, bringing on ann coulter

to debase him and humiliate him, and then he just agrees with it and winks and nods and praises her? >> i think there are two things going on. one, he is trying to make money off of the maga rift, and there are people that love the asna tabassum podcast, and he feels like he is as good as don jr. the other thing is, i think he could be -- he thinks he could be hud secretary. >> is that what ben carson was? >> yes, he has one spot for someone that's not white. >> it has to be the urban development secretary. let me play this bonus one, a bonus contender. hillary clinton on msnbc this week, she tried to school students about the pro- palestinian protest. watch. >> i have had many conversations, as you have had, with a lot of young people over the last many months now. they don't know very much, at

all, about the history of the middle east. they don't know that under the bringing together of the israelis and the palestinians, by my husband, the then israeli prime minister, then head of the palestinian liberation organization, then the palestinian authority, yasir arafat. this author was made, and if yasir arafat had accepted it, there would have been a palestinian state now for about 24 years. >> just to separate the politics from the facts, put aside the facts, which are incorrect. they have been debunked multiple times. the accords were not a serious offer. everyone knows that, except for her, i guess, let's talk about the politics of this. you have a former secretary of state, former presidential candidate, part of the democratic party that knows it needs a coalition of people to defeat donald trump, young people, and she goes out there

and makes those kinds of statements. let's not forget, a professor at columbia university, at one point. >> let's be honest, bill clinton was an anti-vietnam war protester and activist in college, so is she saying he didn't know what he was talking about? she has been consistent she was in the young republicans in college, and she did her best not to allow any anti-vietnam war protests to go on on campus, so she doesn't believe that young people should have the right to speak. we don't need to know the history of the middle east to see images of gaza and be disgusted. if you have any morality whatsoever, you see 14,000 children killed, it looks like world war ii, literally. homes destroyed in gaza. you don't need any background to know that is wrong. for her to dismiss the concerns of young people, i mean, she did not smear them as pro- hamas, which i've heard other people do, but she smeared them as not being smart enough.

they get it, they see what's going on, they know it's wrong. >> you don't have to be an expert on rwanda's history or ethnic tensions in rwanda to know that genocide is wrong, or to know that in yugoslavia, the collapse of yugoslavia, you don't have to know about the modern state of yugoslavia to realize that what happened with the ethnic cleansing there was morally wrong, so i'm not sure why she has taken this approach that young people are uninformed and don't know history. >> she's not a politically gifted politician. and, that is why we are here today. i mean, you need this coalition. you need everyone. obviously, also, these kids are seeing stuff that is affecting them and us, and so, i think that this is not where any of us want to be, nor should we.

>> certainly, when we need young people to participate in the political process in order to save our democracy in a few months from now, i wouldn't, as a political strategy, not try to alienate them and discredit them and tell them their concerns don't matter. molly jong fast, dean obeidallah, thank you to the both of you. next up on the ground in ukraine, where hundreds are fleeing an attack from russia. .a word. we're talking about cashbacking. cashbacking. cashbacking. cashback like a pro with chase freedom unlimited. how do you cashback? what tractor supply customers experience is personalized service. made possible by t-mobile for business. with t-mobile's reliable 5g business internet. employees get the information they need instantly.

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in ukraine. moscow today announcing they captured five villages in northeast ukraine. hundreds have evacuated, fearing a larger attack from russia is coming. deborah haynes of sky news is there. >> reporter: the reality of life under russian fire. a huge blast shattered this residential block. no sign of firefighters yet, but then, this town is a war zone. he says, the blaze must be stopped. because, it could spread, and pensioners live here. another resident, valentina, is scared, but she says she does not want to leave. amid the destruction, there is anger. >> the building was full of

elderly people. they struck just next to our home. >> reporter: tatiana takes us around to the front of the building. >> i was in my apartment. there was a huge explosion, and all the shards of glass fell on me. >> reporter: despite the danger, she too does not want to be evacuated, even though she is wounded. the bomb landed here just a bit earlier. you can see the devastating crater. it blasted this house, residents, civilians were living here. there is a residential block next-door, and people are panicking that the fire will make night fires in their homes too. they are terrified, confused. people don't want to leave, even though help is here to evacuate them. they say they want to sort out their belongings first. it's absolute chaos. we had further -- the town center lies in ruins. some of the damage was inflicted by previous russian shelling over recent months,

but this place was untargeted in a major assault early on friday morning. residents have been told to flee, but now and then, there is the shortest glimpse of life. the center of the town is absolutely devastated, buildings destroyed. you can hear the sound of explosions. it's empty. there is, clearly, a battle still going on here. on the way out of town, evidence of fresh strikes. the police officer who came with us says, the carnage is hard to witness. >> i feel outraged, a sense of injustice that innocent people are suffering like this. we will help them in any way we can. >> reporter: that includes evacuating those, who are willing to go, and not just from here, but other villages close to russia's border, as fighting rages. this family left when russia

first occupied the area in the early months of the war. they returned after a ukrainian counteroffensive pushed the russians out, but now, they are fleeing again. >> we did not sleep at all last night. there was shelling. they hit the hospital next to us and all of our windows shattered. >> reporter: you think you will ever be able to go home? >> we have our animals there. we have our pigs, chickens, dogs, cats. when everything is okay, we will come home. >> reporter: a hope, held by everyone here, but it will depend on whether ukraine, once again, can reverse the russian advance. deborah haynes, sky news, northeastern ukraine. >> our thanks to sky defense

and security editor, deborah haynes, and thank you for making time for us tonight. be sure to come back tomorrow night. i will be speaking to arizona secretary of state, adrian fontes, about his warning on the use of ai in the next election. we will have that and much more when we see you at 7:00 eastern. until then, i am ayman mohyeldin in new york. have a good night. (ella) fashion moves fast. setting trends is our business. we need to scale with customer demand... in real time. (jen) so we partner with verizon. their solution for us? a private 5g network. (ella) we now get more control of production,

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